PocketShip vs. AD 14/16

[jpb]

What do you think about the seaworthness of PocketShip vs. AD 14/16 (http://bateau.com/proddetail.php?prod=AD14 / http://bateau.com/proddetail.php?prod=AD16)
Which one is more seaworthy? Couldn't the hight seat sides reduce the self-righting capability of PocketShip?

jpb

[mtsailor]

I can't speak for John, the designer of the PocketShip, but I don't recall any statement in the boat description or manual that the PocketShip is "self righting". I'm comfortable that it will be a safe boat and easily recover from a knockdown and float good enough to be bailed out if ever swamped. The AD 14/16 is an interesting design. Thanks for the info on it. Jer mtsailor http://gallery.me.com/jermcmanus

[decurtis]

I looked at the Adelie 14/16's briefly when I was deciding on what boat to build. At the time I couldn't actually find any photos of the boat or anyone who was building one. It was just a boat design and no more. They now are selling kits for it but I still cannot find any photos or information about someone building one. That kind of puts up a warning flag for me. I am also not a boat designer but I think Pocketship's longer keel, heavier displacement, and more ballast will make it even more stable than the AD 14/16. I am certainly going to be more comfortable and drier with Pocketship's nice large seatbacks compared to the safety lines on the AD 14/16. Just my two cents worth.

[John C. Harris]

>>>>Which one is more seaworthy? Couldn't the hight seat sides reduce the self-righting capability of PocketShip?
>>>

The opposite. The seat backs are hollow and comprise an important element of PocketShip's flotation plan. At 80 degrees you've barely shipped any water in the cockpit. The seat backs actually increase stability until you get past 100 degrees of heel. Once you're at 80 degrees of heel, the crew has fallen out of the boat into the water, where perhaps the dunking will bring them to their senses and emphasize that they should have exercised better seamanship.

See my thoughts about PocketShip stability here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=78

To repeat, I have always been suspicious of stability claims in small boats. Phil Bolger---with whom I've had this very discussion---said that if you don't think a boat can be capsized, just watch a toy boat in the surf at the beach. That's an accurate scale version of what you can encounter in a gale offshore. What you're doing in a PocketShip in a gale offshore is your own business, but consider the design warranty invalidated.

Wind alone won't be enough to do more than knock PocketShip down, spill your drinks, and cause you to heave to and take in the reef that you should have taken in an hour ago.

[jpb]

Hallo John,

thank you for your answer. I like the AD16. It was my favorite design until last week. Just few days ago, I read about PocketShip. It looks great. Is it possible that you describe the major differences to AD16. Both are new and modern designs. I know, it is difficult for a designer to compare own designs with other designs. Maybe you can try it.

Jan

[decurtis]

I finally found some photos of an actual Adelie 16 http://www.bateau.com/boats/AD16/slides/AD16_LLEW_profile2.html
Just from the pictures you can see there are some obvious differences. Most noticeable of course is the walk through transom and no real seatbacks. I may be prejudiced but I am much more confident about staying high and dry in my Pocketship than an Adelie 16.

[Keith]

What do you think about the seaworthness of PocketShip vs. Adelie 14/16?

I've looked at the Adelie 14 and 16 in the past too. Looking at the study plans, there are some similarities to the cockpit and cabin sizes, but I think the PocketShip will be drier to sail. The description of the Adelie 14 is...

"a coastal cruiser but a very able one. She is virtually uncapsizable. Thanks to her high sides, full width cambered deck and 250 lbs. of ballast; she has a positive righting arm up to 135 degrees. Fill the mast with foam and it gets even better. She will recover from a full roll over very fast: her high profile cambered deck makes her very unstable upside down. "

It goes on to say...

"the boat can be made unsinkable with the addition of buoyancy foam"

That makes it sound like it isn't unsinkable without that addition. Looking at the Pocketship plans, at a guess, there must be something like a cubic metre of foam in watertight compartments... i.e forward of bulkhead #1 (pages 116 & 117 of the manual), and in the cockpit seat backs (page 151). I thought there was a mention of foam under the floor towards the transom, but can't find it at the moment. I couldn't have imagined it as page 116 mentions "four large watertight compartments". Can someone point me point me to the page number if it exists? A searchable PDF copy of the manual would sure be nice!

The Adelie 16's 250 lbs of ballast is an amount comparable to that of the PocketShip, but the Adelie places half of it in the centreboard, which could be good as long as it wasn't slamming back into the trunk in a complete capsize. I'm still looking forward to John finding the time to try putting PocketShip #1 over on its side by winching it over to see if it wants to float on its side or if it wants to actually turn turtle, and if so, how easy it is to right it. However, I've got to agree with his comment about the floation provided by the seatbacks. Floation placed high above the waterline must help if it's ever over on its side

[decurtis]

The plans show the lazarette/watertight transom compartments but the manual forgot to mention putting in the foam before putting on the cockpit decking. On P.202 you can see the foam in the lazarette compartments. I have found it very useful to refer to the plans frequently and not to just rely on the manual. A mod I did on my Pocketship was to put in lazarette decking to separate the lazarette compartment from the foam. Since the lazarette hatches are watertight it means I actually created 3 watertight compartments at the transom instead of just one. The photos on this blog posting show what I did.

http://pocketshipadventure.blogspot.com/2009/06/construction-update.html

[biel]

Hi all,

I too have been looking into both the Adelie 16 and the Pocketship designs; the Adelie seems to be of sensible lines, while the Pocketship is truly classic in appearance. Not having ordered or seen the actual plans yet, I assume that the cockpit area is not self-draining, right?

[Keith]

I assume that the cockpit area is not self-draining, right?

Actually, the Pocketship cocpit is self-draining. I couldn't find which page they were menioned on in the manual, but the the two drains can be seen by page 220. They can also be seen in the construction photos on CLC's site. They aren't very large, but should drain the cockpit under normal circumstances. If the cabin was swamped, you might have to get bailer going!