Keel Shoe

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Re: Keel Shoe

Postby DanaDCole on Tue Apr 22, 2014 3:11 pm

Bflat, good point. The boat seems huge to me, the owner of a Skerry, but in fact it is pretty small. Comparatively heavy, but with a few friends to help I'm sure we can get it off the trailer and onto the grass. I guess it's JonLee's "Centerboard of Doom" posts and replies that had me worried--all that fuss about using the tide to lay it over and forklifts and gantries, etc. But now that I think about it, if there is a way to get it from the garage onto a trailer after building it, that same method should suffice to get it off the trailer when necessary.

TrueNorth, you've got some good ideas, but after reading Bflat's latest post I think the Dynel/graphite idea and some epoxy bottom paint will be sufficient now that I am more comfortable about getting at the bottom of the hull.
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Re: Keel Shoe

Postby DanaDCole on Tue Apr 22, 2014 3:14 pm

Bflat, good point. The boat seems huge to me, the owner of a Skerry, but in fact it is pretty small. Comparatively heavy, but with a few friends to help I'm sure we can get it off the trailer and onto the grass. I guess it's JonLee's "Centerboard of Doom" posts and replies that had me worried--all that fuss about using the tide to lay it over and forklifts and gantries, etc. But now that I think about it, if there is a way to get it from the garage onto a trailer after building it, that same method should suffice to get it off the trailer when necessary.

TrueNorth, you've got some good ideas, but after reading Bflat's latest post I think the Dynel/graphite idea and some epoxy bottom paint will be sufficient now that I am more comfortable about getting at the bottom of the hull.
DanaDCole
 
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Location: Stillwater, Oklahoma

Re: Keel Shoe

Postby captain charlie on Mon Apr 28, 2014 5:14 pm

I took Pete's idea about the stainless steel keel shoe and had two pieces 1/8" by 1" wide made , one forward of the centerboard trunk and one aft. I used countersunk stainless screws to fasten the shoe to the keel, filling the holes with epoxy and epoxying the shoe itself also. I haven't had any problems. but I also haven't had occasion to beach yepimadeit, as most of the lakes I've sailed have had rocky shores (corps of engineers lakes). I think the shoes cost about $100 or so. captain charlie
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Re: Keel Shoe

Postby DanaDCole on Mon Apr 28, 2014 9:05 pm

I read that one also, but forgot it was Pete McCrary's idea. Like you, I hate all the rocks and rip-rap they use around here. The lake near my house even has jetties surrounded with concrete! I think I'll go with my previous idea--get the boat built and wrap it in plastic. :)
DanaDCole
 
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Re: Keel Shoe

Postby DanaDCole on Tue Apr 29, 2014 8:03 am

Just to be clear, I'm guessing you laid the fiberglass cloth and put on at least the wetting-out and fill coats of epoxy, and possibly the gloss coat before laying on the stainless steel strip. You then drilled the holes for the screws and filled the holes with epoxy before attaching the steel. Is this correct? Did you put the screws in uncured epoxy?

I'm not sure what the epoxy coat over the stainless steel buys you--perhaps just making sure everything is sealed up?

A couple of thoughts: If you lay the strip on before the gloss coat cures fully I think that would help it bond (but would make it a lot harder to replace if you ever have to). Also I think there should be screws very close to the leading edges of each strip.
DanaDCole
 
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Re: Keel Shoe

Postby John C. Harris on Sun May 04, 2014 5:30 pm

I've not absorbed every word of this thread, but for the record I do not endorse metal skid plates and the like on the bottom of the keel.

PocketShip #1 has probably had more trailer launchings, groundings, and general abuse than all other extant PocketShips combined, yet the bottom of the keel is in good shape. The paint is scraped off, mostly, but there's been no penetration through the fiberglass. (This even includes one lamentable episode where I winched the beast all of the way on to the trailer before I noticed that I'd missed the rollers and keel trough, dragging the keel instead over the metal frame of the trailer.)

Water is really dense at the depth of the bottom of the keel. I can't envision any applique keel treatment that won't create fairly dirty hydrodynamics, right where it will do the most damage to boat speed.

The fasteners holding on the keel strip (again, very dirty hydrodynamically) also provide an excellent entry point for water into the unprotected wood of the keel structure. Careful bedding work will hold it off for a season or two, but the water always finds a way in.

My somewhat glib observation is that you should spend more time minding the chart while under sail and less time trying to make the keel bulletproof.

If armor plating is desired, I'd go with more fiberglass wrapped over the bottom of the keel. Five, six layers or more. Then feather it in neatly. Think about this: there are hundreds of thousands of all-fiberglass keel sailing boats out there, and not one of them has a metallic skid plate. Just fairly thick fiberglass.
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Re: Keel Shoe

Postby DanaDCole on Sun May 04, 2014 9:21 pm

Thanks for your insights, they are very much appreciated, especially coming from the designer of the boat. Speaking for myself only, the reason for my concerns, living inland, has to do with all the rocks, rough concrete and rip-rap they put around the shores of reservoirs.

I have given some consideration to dynel cloth and graphite near the nose, over the gloss coat and faired in as smoothly as possible. Do you have any thoughts about that?
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Re: Keel Shoe

Postby John C. Harris on Tue May 06, 2014 7:00 am

>>>>the reason for my concerns, living inland, has to do with all the rocks, rough concrete and rip-rap they put around the shores of reservoirs. >>>>

Seriously, I'm not trying to be glib, but the very best way to protect the keel is to avoid sailing into rocks or concrete... Once you've piled up on the rocks, there's no guarantee that the damage will be confined only to the reinforced part of the keel.

>>>I have given some consideration to dynel cloth and graphite near the nose, over the gloss coat and faired in as smoothly as possible. Do you have any thoughts about that?

Well, sure, Dynel will work. If you're doing this concurrently with construction there's no reason the added reinforcement can't be "feathered in" with the sander so that it's invisibly smooth. Rough work on the underbody of the boat will be out of sight but not out of mind when it comes to sailing performance.
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Re: Keel Shoe

Postby DanaDCole on Tue May 06, 2014 11:27 am

I agree that it's obviously best to avoid rocks and so on (kind of hard with the ones you can't see though). An incident just the other day has convinced me that, especially with my limited sailing ability, I'm going to have to give in and mount a small outboard, especially for maneuvering around docks.

It was windier than predicted when I got to the lake (around 18 knots or so, not the predicted 12). As this was my first sail of the season, the prudent thing would have been to turn around and go home, but of course I did not. I was about ready to launch from the dock when a pontoon boat began heading toward me--the guy had lost his forward thrust somehow and was unable to maneuver. The wind, quartering off my starboard bow, was blowing him straight at me. I untied and tried to quickly back away and tack to starboard. That was not to be and I was pushed to port, headed straight for the shore at a pretty good clip. My only choice (I thought) was to gybe around to port. Instead, as the lake was about three feet low I quickly ran aground. This was probably a good thing because out that far the bottom was sandy. I dropped sail, raised the daggerboard, paddled in, and put the boat back on the trailer. (I did stay around long enough to help the guy get his pontoon boat back on his trailer.) In hindsight, there were a couple things I could have done differently that might have worked, but I didn't think quickly enough. So, this was another good lesson learned.

This would have probably been much more of a disaster with the PocketShip. Maybe the outboard would have helped me get out of the situation, or maybe I could not have started it in time--at least it would have been an option.
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Re: Keel Shoe

Postby herbt on Tue Jul 08, 2014 11:06 am

Attached are a couple of shots of the keel shoe I added to my pocketship. I decided to not try to add it to the CB Trunk area in order to provide a space for air circulation when the boat is sitting on a trailer. The CB trunk turned out to be stiffer than I thought it would with 2 layers of glass on it. The shoe is made of 1/2 inch mahogany scrap left over from the rails. I also added 4 inch tape to the keel/hull joint. The glassing is not complete at this point so still looks a little rough. Eventually the bottom is going to be finished in graphite powder mixed with epoxy. I really dont expect to have to replace the shoe so it has been bonded on with epoxy and glassed with 4 inch tape. If it ever does have to be replaced it can be easily ground off.

Herb
Attachments
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IMG_0898 (640x480).jpg (179.79 KiB) Viewed 7795 times
IMG_0897 (640x480).jpg
IMG_0897 (640x480).jpg (163.23 KiB) Viewed 7772 times
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