How is this possible, and how can I fix it? [fixed!]

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Re: How is this possible, and how can I fix it? [fixed!]

Postby DanaDCole on Thu Sep 10, 2015 5:17 pm

I am so sorry to hear about this, especially given all the troubles you have been having. I've never understood why people are allowed to just jump in a motor boat and drive it off without requiring any kind of training or certification. Many drivers of motorized boats and jet skis have no clue of the "rules of the road." Sadly though, many sailors don't understand them that well either. Well, this is not the place to go into all of that. I can only hope that the fishermen either did not see you or that it was too late by the time they figured out what to do, i.e., just dumb, not drunk or purposely malicious.

If I understand your post it sounds as if the centerboard was levered sideways hard enough to rupture the trunk near the top. So I guess that means the centerboard itself did not suffer any damage, but have you checked the area of the keel and centerboard around the pivot? I hope that is OK.
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Re: How is this possible, and how can I fix it? [fixed!]

Postby kpbroughton on Tue Sep 15, 2015 10:49 am

hi craig not sure you want to hear this but it,s about or post ( how is it possible and how to fix it.
have had the same thing happen to me after a long weekend camping on the water.
saw some water leaking in at the top of my[img] centerboard trunk , put it down to been run a shore by a fishman and the centerboard dug in to the beach.
have had time to look at it this week but what has happened is the water has wicked up the grain in the centerboard trunk like you said and the frist two layers of the ply have peeld away .
its only on the starboard side but goes all the way back and must be the same under the hull on the keel .
would not have found it if i had not sanded all the paint off and poked it with a screw drive .
not sure how to fix it yet but i should check your,s if it was doing the same.
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Re: How is this possible, and how can I fix it? [fixed!]

Postby DanaDCole on Tue Sep 15, 2015 11:34 am

This is getting to be worrisome. That joint between the keel bottom and the CB trunk is the Achilles' heel. I hope somebody comes up with an ingenious solution pretty soon. Quite a while back I posted a suggestion that foam with tape over it or something like that be stuffed in the trunk to keep epoxy from running down the sides. That way it would be possible to really saturate that area (but most everybody thought it was not necessary). Even so, that area takes a lot of abuse and any amount of epoxy could eventually be worn through. Maybe Pete McCrary was right to put a metal strip down there.

As some of you may know I wrote John about the idea of removing the bottom of the keel trough and replacing it with rollers, but so far he has not responded. The sides of the trough would be left in place to guide the keel, so what I'm trying to find out from John is whether he feels the three rollers will give adequate support to the keel. If he "endorses" my idea, then I definitely plan to do it. That way it will be possible to inspect the keel bottom from time to time and it won't be sitting on wet carpet. It also would allow you to make repairs to the bottom. I hope he responds soon. Trailex tells me that is the way they originally designed the trailer but CLC had them exchange the front two rollers for a keel trough.
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Re: How is this possible, and how can I fix it? [fixed!]

Postby craig on Tue Sep 15, 2015 12:48 pm

kpbroughton: I'm really sorry to hear about your issues. If I understood your posts correctly, the primary damage was caused by the motor boat running you ashore, which split the centerboard trunk at the top, allowing water to come in. Then, while inspecting that damage, you noticed water damage to the plywood in the centerboard trunk/keel sides area.

I agree with John that water can wick up plywood, but not enough to fill the bilges. I am convinced (and will prove it the next time I get on the water), that my water problems were caused by a leaky centerboard inspection hatch. However, I did notice during that inspection that I have worn away the fiberglass and epoxy on the keel bottom in the area of the centerboard trunk and under the noseblock. I propose that you have the same problem.

Can you post pictures of the centerboard trunk damage caused by running ashore? Maybe the community can think of good fixes. I would imagine you should just widen the split wood, inject in some epoxy, and clamp it shut.

For the keel bottom: left unchecked, this will damage the boat. Look what happened to Jon's boat, and thankfully I caught mine early enough. The end grain of any wood, but especially plywood, will absorb water and should be sealed with epoxy. Your only real "Fix" to this is to re-fiberglass those areas to keep them covered, and then avoid rocks. Easier said than done! I'm not sure that a "shoe" for the keel will help much, honestly, because for me the damage was primarily on the rounded-over edges of the keel, where the shoe doesn't cover. That makes sense: more often, the boat will drift into something from the bottom-side, and not just from the bottom. Hence, the rounded-over edges get the harshest treatment.

I have added three layers of fiberglass to that area and finished with a layer of thickened epoxy. I don't think that will stop everything, but it will help a little.

Dana: I see what you're saying about the epoxy saturation, but I think that the area is fully saturated initially with fiberglass and epoxy. It just gets worn down by hitting rocks. Which, admittedly, should be avoided. "more" saturation wouldn't prevent the problem. What we need (and can you think of how to do this?) is a fancy "shoe" that covers the entire keel bottom, including the rounded edges, in the area of the centerboard trunk and noseblock.
Titania, launched January 2015
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Re: How is this possible, and how can I fix it? [fixed!]

Postby DanaDCole on Tue Sep 15, 2015 6:54 pm

Maybe dynel cloth and graphite/epoxy all along the keel bottom? I'm starting to think I'll just wrap my boat in plastic and leave it on the trailer--take it out once a year to admire it. :D Seriously though, damage is going to happen, that's just part of sailing. What we need is some easier way to get at the keel and centerboard/centerboard trunk.
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Re: How is this possible, and how can I fix it? [fixed!]

Postby JonLee on Tue Sep 15, 2015 7:58 pm

At one time, I was planning to run aramid (Kevlar) tape along the bottom of the keel to add abrasion protection. I even bought the tape, but ultimately chose not to mess with it...cutting and sanding aramid is a nightmare. I can't see much of a benefit, unless you were consistently beaching the boat on nasty surfaces.
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Re: How is this possible, and how can I fix it? [fixed!]

Postby kpbroughton on Wed Sep 16, 2015 8:15 am

hi craig, it was the the running up on to beach that highlight the problem. but it did not cause the leak when i sanded the top of the trunk the ply wood had delaminated and the water was seeping up the
second layer off ply wood. i have peeled it down to bottom of the trunking and has soaked all of the wood it is the front of the above were the center board bolt goes through the keel .
if it has delaminated the ply wood inside the boat it most be the same around the bolt on the keel. it has weaken the side wall of the trunking as it is down to five layers now and they are soaked .
the damage stops when above the water line will have to cut out the trunking below the water line inside and on the keel and replace, thats a big job. this must be becuase of lack of paint /epoxy/ damage
to that part of the keel. i have sailed by chance with one of my inspection hatchs out and we had no amount of water come in. if you have not had your boat back on the water i would have a look at yours.
my boat has only been on the water six times but has sat on thick wet carpet on the trailer for six months waiting to be launched we did drag the boat on to the trailer six months ago and i am all most sure we would have damaged the edge of the trunking /keel.
will post some photos soon.
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Re: How is this possible, and how can I fix it? [fixed!]

Postby John C. Harris on Thu Sep 17, 2015 9:11 am

PocketShip #1 has had bare wood on the bottom of the keel for years now, the result of a wide range of grounding and trailering misadventures. The structure can handle it. I have vague notions of patching it this fall, but feel no special anxiety about the bare wood there. And that boat really gets used hard!
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Re: How is this possible, and how can I fix it? [fixed!]

Postby DanaDCole on Thu Sep 17, 2015 11:42 am

That's reassuring, but I'm guessing the bare spots must not include the plywood edges of the trunk?

Back to ideas about reinforcing the bottom: There are several reasons for me at least not to like the idea of a metal strip. For one thing, it would be next to impossible to make the mounting screws absolutely leak-proof.

I'm considering the idea that was discussed in a much earlier post, a sacrificial shoe made of purpleheart or locust or some other very tough wood. The shoe would be glued on with epoxy and embedded in epoxy to waterproof it (for a while). It might not have to be replaced for years. If I decide to add such a shoe, I will mount two, one from just aft of the noseblock to the forward edge of the trunk, and a second from just aft of the trunk back about three or four feet. The leading and following edges of the shoes should be beveled or rounded down. John may not care for this idea since it adds a little drag, but I think it is better than the alternative.
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Re: How is this possible, and how can I fix it? [fixed!]

Postby kpbroughton on Fri Sep 18, 2015 7:03 pm

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The water was coming up in between the 2nd and 3rd layers of ply and has soaked the trunking all the way back. This is below the water line and the wood is dry above the lower part of the trunking.
Had sleepd on board the night before and my sleeping bag was as wet as a otters pocket when i went below mid day .
The rate it was coming in if i had not been waiting for may wife to turn up and had gone out on my own the water would have been up to the floor boards inside.
The suzy b has only being on the water six times since june when i lanuched her . This amount of damage can not have been done in this short of a time but she has sat the the carpet i put on the trailer for six months. I have watched the rain water run out of the drain holes for the Dorade boxes and down the side of the of the hull on to the base of the trailer were the carpet is.
Did not think about it at the time but it seems to me this can be the only way this could have happend . It,s been rain here in england all spring and summer.
Have peeled the ply all the back and down since the photo and it goes all the way through below the floor in it the keel. The trunking is fine on the port side with no sign of damage.
When i found the leak it was just 3in long seeping through the paint work on the top, would have been none the wiser as to how weak the wood was if i had not sand the top of the paint off.
Have not had the boat up off the trailer yet but expect to see some paint off on that part of the keel to let this amount of water to get in and do this damage.
When i have cut this all out and replaced it shall be fitting a automatic bilge pump for sure.
Was lucky i found this when i did as i was going to take her on the sea later this month for a 20 mile trip around the coast would have had to have called out the coast guard.
Let you no how i get on with the repair.
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